Episode 43

Andrew Pace [00:00:00]:

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The most profitable wager to the sportsbook is a parlay, and you're discouraging users from making them on your platform? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Shane Mercer [00:00:23]:

Welcome to another episode of Behind the Lines, the only Podcast purifying the sports betting industry. Remember to like, download, subscribe, follow us on all the socials @inplayLIVE. You wanna see what inplayLIVE is all about come join me, come join Pace. You can do that with a promo code that is 'BEHINDTHELINES', all caps, and you can see what it's all about on your side. Alright. I'm your host, Shane Mercer. That guy over there, Andrew Pace, the founder of inplayLIVE, and we are back at it again here for another week. Pace, how was your weekend, your week? How is everything been going for you since we last chatted?

Andrew Pace [00:00:58]:

Really good. Yeah. Had a great week. Yeah. Keeping things simple. I think, Shane, the audience is more interested in your story now because we're getting a Sunday by Sunday rundown.

Andrew Pace [00:01:09]:

Disappointed with $500, being down $1,000? How are things going for you?

Shane Mercer [00:01:17]:

Things have significantly turned around. I'm very, very happy. Yeah. You know, I had a great weekend. You know, since we last chatted, that count that that was looking very unhealthy after that that losing stretch is, has returned to full health. You know, at full Returned to glory. Return to glory. Got that $1,000 back.

Shane Mercer [00:01:38]:

Got a lot more than that, back in that account, which is which is fantastic, and, just Just, crushing it on college basketball. Doing really well there. One of one of my favorite, things to bet on or one of my favorite strats. And for anybody out there who's listening, you can go back and listen to our college basketball show from a few weeks ago, and we talked a lot about, a lot about that. But I I personally absolutely love dialing into college basketball. But on top of that too, we had a great NFL weekend as well. We did really well with NFL. I was really happy with that.

Shane Mercer [00:02:07]:

So, You know, I I did about 3 k over the weekend, which is kind of what I'd like to do going forward on a more regular basis, especially when I'm locking in for a whole day like I did Sunday. And now that's kind of, you know, where where I I wanna make those sort of my my average days going forward or at least for the for this For the rest of this kind of, season, which sort of takes us all the way till till about the end of March or so. This is, you know, a a pace you do those, those those Primers, so for everybody out there who's not a part of inplayLIVE. And if you are a part of inplayLIVE and you're not watching the Monday primer, I encourage you to go watch the Monday primer. It's, like, 10, 15 minutes. You don't even watch it. You can just listen to it. But, pace, I think in the primary, you sort of said this is the time of year where you really like to lock in and dial it in.

Shane Mercer [00:02:50]:

And that's exactly what I'm trying Well, I'm trying to really lock in, dial it in from now until about the end of March. And, and and just really kind of, you know, have have really strong days, strong weeks, Strong ones. Not till then. And then, you know, maybe then I'll I'll unplug a little bit and kinda kinda take a bit of a break. But, no. It it's been fantastic. It was nice to kind of, vent a little bit here on the show about it and kinda get that stuff out there, but I'm really, I'm really happy with this past weekend and and how things went went for me. So, So really, really really happy about that.

Shane Mercer [00:03:22]:

But, of course, the the the show isn't about me necessarily and my runs or or your runs or anything. We're here to, talk about the books And what they've been doing and, there's been a lot of, funny things going on, shall we say. So we've got a few different topics to get into, in the sports betting world. But 1st place, you've got some stuff that you wanted to share when it comes to, getting limited and maybe some books doing some other shady things.

Andrew Pace [00:03:47]:

Yeah. I mean, obviously, we did we did our episode on on being limited. I've just went through back to back books on the same day, different sportsbooks, one being very well known regulated book in Canada, that's partners and, brothers or sisters, shall we say, with a very well regulated book in the United States, limiting, an account down $5,000, which I wouldn't say is uncommon, but it just sucks when this, quote, unquote, business Decision has been made by a sportsbook where you have sufficiently shown them that you're not just a good customer being down $5,000, but an excellent exceptional customer. So you're punished for a large wager even though it lost. You're punished for, potentially betting on something that they didn't like, whether it won or lost, was irrelevant. So I had the app on a major regulated sportsbook, and then interestingly enough, I had the exact same situation happen On an offshore crypto sportsbook that I found, that uses some lines that I was, interested in. And, basically, what happened with this sportsbook is I deposited $4,000, into the sportsbook, had a really, really good opportunity and clicked that old, Fancy bet max button. And, the bet max was, I think, 35100.

Andrew Pace [00:05:18]:

Had $500 left in the account and, the bet lost. I had $500 left in the account and, put the 500 on the next wager that, and by the way, if you're new to this, guys, I'm not betting that percentage of that isn't the percentage of my bankroll that I bet. I didn't you know, 80% of my bankroll on 1 wager, I I my unit size can afford to make that $35100, bet. So bet the $500, one. Bet the $1,000, which it was more like 900 because it was like a normal juice kinda like a a 1.9, 1.8 line, 1. So won those 2 bets and got my balance back to $1600 and, woke up limited in that sportsbook. So Lost a a couple $1,000, and they said it was, you know, the classic line that they give you a business decision not to work with you anymore. So I don't really know what the point of what I'm saying is, just because I know that so many of our listeners have had this happen to them.

Andrew Pace [00:06:18]:

But if you if you haven't had it happen to you, I know the 1st time it happens, it feels strange because it's one of these things in life where I don't know if it's Superman syndrome or what it is, but people oftentimes thinks that think that bad things don't happen to them or won't happen to them, and then the 1st time you get limited, you feel a little stunned and shocked that it actually did happen to you. Yeah. I just think that the industry as a whole just needs so much work, and it's kind of why this podcast exists, it's why inplayLIVE exists. I'm it's really hard to comprehend walking into a store, buying something off the shelf of that store, and then being told that you're not welcome back, when you win your bets, it feels so wrong to be limited where you're like, gosh. Like, I'm just a customer playing by your rules, preaching the things that you guys preach in the media, you know, all these commercials of of us winning money and and just living this great life through you, I'm actually living to an extent and not without its struggle and challenge and being told, hey. You're you're done. Sure. But that's a losing customer that on paper supported, you know, the growth of of your sportsbook.

Andrew Pace [00:07:38]:

And I think in the case of this crypto book that I used, they hadn't had someone click that Bet Max button. So when they saw that that had happened, they're that they're that small. They're like, oh, we don't like what he bet on. Right. This guy knows what he's doing. And all also too, it's an odds provider that I had seen before. So, you know, the the trading team it can go, who is this guy? Let's let's get him verified. So what they did is they said, yeah.

Andrew Pace [00:08:01]:

We're happy to, you know, look at your limits, but we need you to verify. And this one was wild I had to do. So this is like a crash course on a few of our different episodes. But I had to do, you know, all your documents, and it's funny because some people are like, they asked for my documents. That's so shady. But I had to do all my documents as as you as you do need to. But every document I sent, I needed to send a screenshot with, So I had to actually print stuff, like, typically, you wouldn't print out your proof of address. So I did screenshots with it, and then they came back and said, can you please video yourself on your account page? So a selfie of you where in the same shot of the video is your account details page.

Andrew Pace [00:08:42]:

So I'm like, alright. You know, this is cool. They're just making sure that it's me, and I'm never really opposed to that kind of stuff. It can be like, oh my god. You want this now or this isn't Approve for this reason or whatever. That's just ridiculous. Alright. They want their stuff.

Andrew Pace [00:08:53]:

I'll just give it to them. That was kind of my mentality. And then sure enough, Everything's been approved and you've been verified, but your limits are are the way they are. So that can be the trading team looking up your your past performance with a different sportsbook, that gets you limited. But, yeah, the whole landscape is is in a challenging spot with back to all of those things covered. And the good news is there's a lot of positives, you know, books that aren't limiting you and new new, Sportsbooks trying new things in new markets, you know, ESPN bet and that kind of thing that we've talked about a little bit, where where there are these new opportunities that that really gets you excited. But, yeah, it it sucks to see that happening. And my biggest advice to everyone listening is don't let it become the norm.

Andrew Pace [00:09:42]:

Don't sit there and go, oh, I'm toast on to the next. Stand up for yourself each and every time. That means contacting the support of that sportsbook, asking for a reason they'll never give you one, asking for a complaint number so that you can go to that sportsbooks regulator, whether the regulator does something or not isn't the point. It's about voicing the issue or the concern, and go to the media. So if that means their social media page saying, hey. This is the these are and give them the data. Right? Like, give them the hard facts. Signed up for the sportsbook today, made 3 bets.

Andrew Pace [00:10:21]:

They limited me and asked for all these documents, still haven't paid me, the the remaining balance that that's in my account, go right onto their Twitter, go right onto their Instagram, comment underneath, go to your local media if you need to. Like, don't let them get away with catering to problematic losing players. That is not a level playing field. So, each and every time it happens to you, recognize that this is not, you know, the way the industry is. This is war, and we have to stand up and rise together because 1 person doing it will do nothing. We all have to do it.

Shane Mercer [00:11:02]:

Yeah. I love that you said there go to the media. You know, a lot of people think like, oh, what? I've gotta contact the local news and talk to them and you know? No. No. Right? We live in a day and age now where the media is at your fingertips. You control your own media. Right? You control your Facebook account, your Twitter account, your Instagram account, your TikTok, your LinkedIn, whatever it might be. Right? There's so many options for you.

Shane Mercer [00:11:20]:

All you gotta do is go on there and tag them and make a post and say, hey. You did this to me. Why'd you do this? Right? Well, what's the purpose of this? And and that kind of thing, and you can you can hit them right up Just like that. And it and it's as quick and easy as as, you know, you know, going on your phone and and scrolling, like most people are often doing and wasting time doing that. Instead, hey. Go make Post and and, you know, tag that sportsbook. Now let's talk about that bet. You brought up ESPN bet.

Shane Mercer [00:11:46]:

We've been talking about them a lot lately on the show, and here they are making another on Behind the Lines, for something that they did. That would that is kinda shady, and they actually got tagged by a guy on Twitter. So this was calculator Grant at calculator Grant, posting his parlay. And I don't know how many legs he had, maybe 6, 7 legs on this parlay. I think it was mostly NFL bets, and, one one outcome on that parlay pushed. Now most sportsbooks would say, okay. You push that that leg of the bet. We're gonna pay out your winnings at reduced odds.

Shane Mercer [00:12:23]:

And I think his odds on this Or something like 23 to 1, something like that. So, you know, you had a pretty significant parlay here. You know, that that was gonna pay out 23 to 1. He pushed one leg. So maybe, you know, with the push that that should have paid out maybe somewhere in, like, the area of 15 to 1, something like that, 16 to 1, you know, depending on on how I want the juice was on it and all that. But the point is is that ESPN bet didn't pay them out. Instead, they voided the the entire parlay. So instead of paying them out, you know, at at reduced odds, they said, nope.

Shane Mercer [00:12:55]:

You pushed 1 leg of your bet, so we're gonna scrap the whole wager. Here's your here's your bet back. You know, the bet's voided. You know, he posted this on on Twitter. He got he did get a response from ESPN bet, And the response was, oh, hey. Reach out to us. Contact us. Let's talk about this.

Shane Mercer [00:13:14]:

And then it turns out, oh, where the conversation was, well, here's our byline Or our bylaws, our little fine print bylaws, you know, we love to talk about the fine print here. Here's our little fine print bylaws. And in it, it clearly says That if one leg of your parlay is pushed, the whole thing is voided. You know? So they've actually got it written into their policy that this is something That they're gonna do, which is very different than the rest of the sportsbooks. All the major sportsbooks would would typically pay that out. So, you know, good on this guy for going online and and, you know, posting about it and making everybody aware about it. But, Paes, do you think this is something that that ESPN bet might look to change if they take enough feed on it?

Andrew Pace [00:13:58]:

This is like watching the end of a college football game, what, where, a coach makes a decision that makes you wanna blow your brains out, it doesn't it doesn't make any sense. But my brain immediately jumps to the benefit to the player by a losing parlor, you lose all your legs and 1 leg pushes, well, give me my bet back.

Shane Mercer [00:14:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. You think they're doing that? I don't think so.

Andrew Pace [00:14:20]:

It's written in your it's written in the fine print. So if anyone's watching this that's used ESPN, go back through all your parlays right now. And if any of your lines have pushed, they should refund that based on that guideline. I haven't read it myself, so I'm sure the requirement for the push is isn't. Lose losing legs probably ruin it regardless, but that that would be my stance on it. I'm shocked that they stuck to their guns on this on a wager, like, this is so stupid. This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The most profitable wager to the sportsbook is a parlay, and you're discouraging users from making them on your platform? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Shane Mercer [00:15:02]:

It it really doesn't make a lot of sense from the sportsbooks side side of things. Right? If anything, you'd want to maybe pay that parlay out, go post it on your social media and and advertise it like, hey. Check out this guy. Oh, he pushed one leg, but he still won all this money off of his parlay.

Andrew Pace [00:15:17]:

Right. And and think about the advert think about the advertising.

Andrew Pace [00:01:17]:

When you when you could you could even have a line that's even a little bit worse somewhere. Like, let's say everywhere had minus 6a half for, the, you know, everywhere has minus 6a half for the, Jaguars tonight, but they have minus 7. How many ESPN users are gonna recognize that that are making parlays? Probably not a lot. Yeah. So let's say it lands on 7 and everywhere covered. ESPN could literally say, you pushed. We don't care. We're giving you the win still.

Andrew Pace [00:15:50]:

Like, have a policy like that because people would share that and say if your parlay is pushed, they still pay you there. And that could be an incentive to make parlays at ESPN bet. Instead, they're discouraging the best customers they could possibly capture to make the most profitable bets to the house at their sportsbook. Well, ESPN bet. I wonder if you're gonna come up again on this show.

Shane Mercer [00:16:16]:

I I have a feeling that they probably will. You know, in this case too, I'm sure they're both their their their customer service team is, you know, Contacting the trading team to talk about how we can avoid this from happening again in the future and maybe maybe reviewing those bylaws that that they have written into their policy. You you would think that they would make, that they would do something about it. But I also wanna break this up because I think, you know, pace, we're in that time of year now where we're we're getting towards Christmas. Right? And People are out there looking for some extra cash. And, oh, I I watch a lot of football. I watch a lot of NBA basketball. I watch a lot of hockey.

Shane Mercer [00:16:57]:

I watch a I watch and I know the sport, and I know it. And I just know that this team and this team and this team are gonna Have this outcome and that outcome, and I'm gonna put together this parlay, and I'm gonna hit hit it for a whole bunch of cash, and, you know, I'm gonna be able to buy all my Christmas gifts. Right? I I know that people would think this way. Right? And they go through these these sort of feelings and thoughts, and they they think that this is something that is a way, you know, for them to actually make money. And, you know, there's even people within our group based. You know, I've I don't wanna call anybody out. I'm not gonna say any names, but you see people posting parlays Even within inplayLIVE where we where we actively preach against parlay. Right? Unless it's for something that is very, very recreational and a way to convince the books you're a bad bettor.

Shane Mercer [00:17:39]:

But, you know, I saw 1 Parlay get posted, you know, and I think our the member missed it by 1. But in the corner of the screen, you could see his balance. His balance was $0 in the account. And I'm thinking, dude, is this really something you should be doing? Are you you know? Is this really recreational? Is this really just for butter? You know? I don't know. I don't know. I think I think a lot of people out there have have some bad habits When it comes to parlaying and and especially these big parlays. And, you know, it it's something that I would suggest people move away from, but it's also not easy to break betting Habits. Right? And and I think parlaying is is one of the big betting habits that that, you know, is is probably really difficult to break because it is that kind of a lotto A lotto ticket in a lot of ways.

Shane Mercer [00:18:27]:

Right? And and we're right in that season where, jeez, a couple extra $1,000 could go a long way. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:18:33]:

Totally. Well, don't make them at ESPN bet. If you're going for your lottery ticket, make Sure you place at a good book, but in all seriousness, like, Bet365 had some really good parlor boost, back in the day, and I know that, There's a prominent member in our group that was betting on tennis, and tennis favorites tend to come through in in majors, the big ones early on. And you're getting these parlor boosts on 10, 12 pick parlors, and people were hitting these massive boosts on 365 so much so that, they actually took the promotion down completely. And I know that the whole design of that is kinda what we just touched on. Encourage your players to make parlays and reward them for doing it at your sportsbook. But it's funny how as soon as you cross the line over into a category where there's some edge, the action that you attract and how detrimental that can be to your sportsbook, especially in the parlor category. And the reason for that is because, like you just said, you can get these quick hits for big money.

Andrew Pace [00:19:39]:

So if you are offering an edge now in that space. That quick hit is coming, and it is coming with some really good sports bettors, that know what they're doing in those categories. And, yeah, it can hit you hard, and it can hit you hard and fast. So, yeah, it's it's it's actually interesting because, the likelihood or the probability of hitting a wager obviously decreases by, the outcome becoming less and less statistically attainable. But when there is an edge on those outcomes or when the correlation between them creates an edge. So an example of a correlated created edge would be if you offered the same odds on a parlay for independent picks of Joe Burrow's passing yards with Ja'Marr Chase's, receiving yards. I know Joe Joe Burrow's hurt right now when I make this, but that is a very correlated bet. If Joe Burrow throws her 400 passing yards, Ja'Marr Chase is probably gonna go over his, his pregame receiving yard total.

Andrew Pace [00:20:37]:

Right? So this is where parlays become effective. This is where if the sportsbook isn't recognizing these correlations that you can gain significant edges in certain spots and then combine that with potential promotions and different things that sportsbooks do to encourage you to do that on those sportsbooks, and bang, you can make some money, in that spot. So, obviously, you know, these be all end all statements, like, don't make parlays. There are there are exceptions to them, in a whole different series. And, Shane, you just touched on 1. One of the biggest reasons to make a parlay is to present yourself to that sportsbook as someone that they want as a customer. Now, unfortunately, you can't control, you know, who's gonna come and go in any given sports betting community, I think as a general statement, the industry is just plagued with tons of filth, locks, whale plays, parlays, whatever the case may be, you know, outcome oriented thinking where, you know, you you claim to know the outcome before it happened or, you justify what happened based on the outcome, basically saying, you know, this was the right decision because it won. We we've had Parlay ads where we speak out against Parlays.

Andrew Pace [00:15:49]:

You know, we've got Rodge being the dumb Rodge, the cofounder of InplayLive.

Shane Mercer [00:21:53]:

The brain behind inplayLIVE.

Andrew Pace [00:21:56]:

We should we should get him on here, right, at at some point to to chat about something, maybe not as Behind the Lines, but, you know, you get we got him looking like a dummy making a stupid parlor, recreational parlor. Right? And then the ad goes out with him in it, and then we speak out against Parlays in the ad that you shouldn't do them. And then below the ad, a whole bunch of Comments of people proving that I'm wrong because they're sending in a winning parlay saying that because it won, I'm wrong, and they have no tracking and no information about the the net loss that they've had over time. But the reality is simple. If you have $10 today to bet on something and you can't make rent or you can't do this or that, it's a quick and easy way to see a potential added 0 in your bank account, a 10 to 500, 10 to a1000, whatever it is. And you you piece it all together, and and you enjoy the game and watch the game, cheering for it. So, Yeah. I mean, it it is it is something that people look as this get rich quick sort of thing, and you say it is a hard pattern to to drop.

Andrew Pace [00:23:02]:

Yeah. I have a I have a real hard time, agreeing with that or actually even sympathizing with it. I I really do. I think it's stupid. I think that if you have data and information about your betting history and about your long term success, there is nothing that's going to point to this sort of recreational parlor being something that you should continue to do beyond entertainment of money that you can afford to lose. If it if that's all it is, that's fine. But, yeah, I I I think it's stupid, and I think it's easy to get away from. Track your bets, recognize the patterns and and stop doing the things that are causing you to lose money over time.

Andrew Pace [00:23:43]:

It it it's it's not, it's not nicotine. Nicotine is is, you know, one of the most addictive substances in the world. I haven't I don't have a personal relationship with nicotine at all. But I know that if you try to stop, your body tells you with every fiber and power of being that it's required for you to to take your next breath, if that's how you feel about a parley, like, something's wrong. So, I say simply stop.

Shane Mercer [00:24:12]:

It it's not nicotine, but it is dopamine. Right? And and you you you get that you get that hit. You get that rush when when making it. And, we've got another story here I wanna bring up, and this is out of The Guardian. So this is the, British, news publication, very highly respected Publication. Very reputable. And, this is this is fresh out this week from The Guardian, looking at addiction In the United States, specifically, when it comes to sports betting. And, clearly, people are getting that dopamine fix, And perhaps they're getting too much of it because what it's found is that, some of the stats that it looked at is that, addiction among kids in the US.

Shane Mercer [00:24:55]:

So under legal betting age, saying the country is heading towards a quagmire, if not a crisis. Using some of that good British language there, Twagmire. Or or at least, you know, that's what that's what one experts thinks. They looked at, the New Jersey gambling helpline Saying in 2018, it had about a 1000 calls per year, and it's now getting 25 100 calls per year. So more than double what it used to. Another expert saying It's killing the youth because it's mostly young men. Again, much of the research showing underage. And meanwhile, revenues are spiking For these sportsbooks, FanDuel in the 2022, 2023 fiscal year, 2,000,000,000 in revenue.

Shane Mercer [00:25:35]:

DraftKings, 1 and a half 1000000000. MGM close to a1000000000. So, you know, clearly, there's a lot of young people out there feeling like, Hey. Sports betting is something all my friends are doing. I'm gonna do it too. All my friends are making big parlays. Johnny hit one for, You know, $5,000. And, man, when you're 17 years old, $5,000 is a game changer.

Shane Mercer [00:26:00]:

Right? So I I think, you know, that there that there is a lot of this, going on out there, and people, perhaps, aren't Creating healthy relationships with their sportsbooks and and and perhaps it's getting unhealthy. But, Pace, I think you and I can probably both, attest Or have some lived life experience of betting on sports underage? I know I started really early, But I don't think it was ever it was ever a major problem for me or to the point where I felt I would have to call a helpline. But but, clearly, it's an issue out there, and perhaps parlays are a big part of what's driving that addiction. I don't know. What do you think?

Andrew Pace [00:26:44]:

Well, I think the dopamine statement is true. Obviously, it's like a scientific fact, but you don't need to get it from a parlay. You can get it from a positive EV Value wager. You know? Like, there's a there's other ways to get it. Right? You can go to the gym. You know, you can jump in a cold plunge. Like, there's different ways to get dopamine hits, like you know? So I get it. People want quick, fast, quick, fast money.

Andrew Pace [00:27:09]:

As far as, like, all of that happening goes, and I think there's a place for it in the industry. It is fun. It is exciting. I think from an entertainment standpoint, it's unparalleled. I think it's amazing. I love sports betting. Even the gambling side of it, it is it is fun. It's exciting.

Andrew Pace [00:27:25]:

It's electric. It's energetic. I see, some of my buddies that fully know what I do for a living, fully, could grasp it. No problem. No problem. Some of the smartest guys I know. Successful guys. Very successful.

Andrew Pace [00:27:44]:

They'll come over here. They throw together that parlor, and they just have a blast. And they they hoot and howl at us winning money. They think it's hilarious in a great way. Like, but they're sitting there, you know, rooting in their parlor, and they could just be taking the bets that are being called. No. No. They're unplugging.

Andrew Pace [00:27:59]:

Yeah. They're working all day, families, whatever the case may be. Give me that parlor. Give me that teaser. You know, let's have some fun. Let's ride. And I think that there is so much about that. That's just fun, positive, exciting.

Andrew Pace [00:28:15]:

I'm talking about people that are betting money that is so insignificant to their success. If the parlay hit, they would've made more per hour at their jobs than if the parlay won. And they cheer for that parlay and hold on to that phone or bet slip or whatever it may be, like, dear life throughout the day, you know, maybe a beer in the other hand. And, man, like, when you look at it from that side and you take out this gambling hotline and all that, it's it's just that's just epic. You know? It's just good fun. It's fucking good entertainment and good fun. So, you know, there's a place for all this in the industry. And I think where the line gets crossed is like you said, people relying on the money, people using money that they can't afford, you know, people thinking that it's their way out of of some other life, you know, the list goes on and on and on.

Andrew Pace [00:29:11]:

And and that's where, you know, you brought up a little while ago, the group, like, a parlay in the group. So if you're in our group right now, and you're listening to this, and maybe you're newer to the group as well, simply stop. It like, just cut it out. Get your shit together, focus in, and make some goddamn money. Shane started this thing out saying he made $3,000 over this weekend and wants to make that, you know, kind of a consistent norm. $3 in a weekend is more than most people get paid in 2 weeks across North America. So $3,000, paychecks, not factoring in taxes, like, I don't know, something like $8.80,000 a year. If you can pull that out in a couple days or a day, like, gosh, you know, and keep it coming in because you're not making parleys because you're making consistent disciplined decisions, that's what it's all about.

Andrew Pace [00:30:04]:

And you know what, Shane? When I hear a lot of the stuff that you just said, it's sad. It's dark. It's the bad sides of the industry, but at the same time, I'm like, well, jeez. You know there's a better way to do this? Like, you can make money consistently by following the right people in this industry. And I'm not necessarily saying inplayLIVE. There's other Forms of successful betting beyond ours, but, certainly, we are one of them. So, yeah, just stop, get your shit together, and recognize that in some circumstances, obviously, a lot of paid scammers and bullshit out there, but in a lot of circumstances, the amount that you're losing far succeeds the cost of the information and knowledge associated with someone else's service or subscription or not or or course, or whatever it is that's out there that can turn things around for you for the better.

Shane Mercer [00:30:57]:

Yeah. You know, and we've had some of those people on the show, and and we look to have more on the show in future and bring you some of those people too too because we we wanna hear different perspectives and talk to other people who are doing well in the industry and approaching it in a way that, that that is a little bit more than, than recreational or just for fun, not like those guys, not like your friends coming over and making their parlays and rooting them in. You know, meanwhile, you know, like, that that is for fun. Right? And you I think you know that they're they're trying to unplug. Right? But, Pace, I think when we're doing this kind of thing, We are trying to lock in. We aren't trying to unplug. We are trying to dial it in and really focus and approach it In a way, that that is work. A labor of love, though, of course, because we enjoy it, and we have fun doing it.

Shane Mercer [00:31:42]:

But it's absolutely not an opportunity to, To to unplug, I guess. Right? It it really is, it really is work. And and, you know, that that's a A big, way that I approach it, and that's the way I talk to my family about it that, hey. I'm I'm working right now. I'm I'm busy, you know, generating revenues here. And that and that's that's that's the approach. But I think a lot of average recreational bettors certainly don't take that approach, and that's a mindset shift. If you wanna make money in this business, It's not something that happens, fast, and it's not something that happens easy.

Shane Mercer [00:32:16]:

And, you know, you might hit 1 parlay that that, you know, Brings in some extra cash, but that cash will disappear pretty quick, especially if you're making parlays on the regular, which you will probably do after you hit 1. You'll keep thinking, oh, just make another one and Another one and another one. But, if you if you take an approach that, hey. This is this is it takes hard work, and it takes a lot of learning, and, you know, It takes effort and time. Man, you can really you can really reap rewards over time. Now I wanna get to one other, story here that I think is is bad. Like, it's such a great read, so I wanna bring it up. And then I'm just gonna throw a couple questions at you about it.

Shane Mercer [00:32:55]:

So here's the background. This is in The Washington Post, a publication, you know, that is, Again, highly reputable, but they've also done a lot of investigative pieces on the sports betting world, on the gambling industry. And, Pace, I think you've even spoken to, some of their journalists in the past, and you've been quoted in The Washington Post. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:21:55]:

A few times. Yes.

Shane Mercer [00:33:16]:

A few times. Yeah. So so this is, you know, one of the most reputable, journalistic publications in North America, and, they've done, they've got a great article out there, and I encourage people who are listening. If you have some time, go and read this. It's a bit of a long read. It's not a quick read. It's a good 20 minutes, you know, kinda read. But it it was fantastic.

Shane Mercer [00:33:38]:

And so This in-depth investigative piece about Wayne Nicks, a former minor league baseball player. He managed to form relationships with some of the biggest stars in the world and celebrities. And essentially, what he ended up doing was creating a network of bookies. And so some of the people he was connected with, Scottie Pippen, Maverick Carter, who is LeBron James' agent and business partner, Yacil Puig, the baseball player who, any MLB fans will will know the name. Those are some of the notable names. And, they ended up essentially betting with this guy, Wayne Nicks, and then he had a whole bunch of other people sort of part of this This network of sportsbookies. And he created an offshore sportsbook to kind of Help move that money around. And he had more than a 1000 clients, and we are talking about other big name celebrities and sports stars, and they were moving around quite a lot of money.

Shane Mercer [00:34:42]:

Long story short, this guy ended up being found guilty Of operating an illegal gambling business and filing a false tax return. But, it got me thinking of the whole idea. Does anyone place bets with bookies anymore? You know, we mentioned, you know, FanDuel, DraftKings, BetMGM, those massive revenues that they're generating, and it's all legal to be able to go and bet with these sportsbooks. Why still go underground? Is there a place for bookies out there?

Andrew Pace [00:35:06]:

Oh, absolutely. A 100%. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. I think, I think we've touched on, like, how books like ESPN bet, as a with a really bad interface, how they survive, and and that a lot of sharp players wind up betting there instead of the recreational players that they look for because they'll just stick with their FanDuels and their DraftKings and and all that kind of stuff. But, yeah, there's a whole world out there that exists for the Bookie environment. There's a whole series of reasons as to why someone would use a Bookie. The first reason, is keeping the money that you're betting secret.

Andrew Pace [00:35:48]:

So you just listed off a number of people that, if they had DraftKings or MGM, they might actually be voiding their professional contracts. So if they wanted to place bets through someone, it needs to be done in this fashion, so that there's no trace of of that person's account, or, the wager that was made or whatever the case may be. But the more common example of a person using a bookie is, to hide the finances relating to the gambling being done from their spouse. So, if you pull out cash or if you have a certain amount of cash, you're operating with that money, through your bookie as opposed to, you know, seeing transactions on, you know, your bank statement or your credit card or wherever it may be. So the anonymous factor of it is massive. That would be the first. The second 1 is cash. So, we talked about the anonymous side of it, but the cash aspect of a lot of people that are involved in illegal activity.

Andrew Pace [00:36:48]:

So, again, now we have these crypto books and things like that, but especially if you rewind the tape before the crypto books, you know, you're gonna have a lot of, you know, maybe drug dealers or or whatever the case Maybe that are being paid in cash and they have their money there. So they'll use a bookie because that's, an easy transaction where the money didn't actually need to go into any bank accounts. They actually don't want to have to go deposit into a bank account. So the cash aspect of it is huge. There's more reasons than that, but the anonymous and the cache are massive. The next is when you get into sharp players, that are limited at their sportsbooks, and this is where regulators just have to do a better job. They're like, oh, it's safe to play at these books, and we want you to come over here and we take the risk out of it, and you're the ones that if you lose, you're saying when you play through us, you're supporting the Blah blah blah blah government in this community trying to make it seem noble for using them. But what if they limit you and they don't let you keep playing? Will people look, especially people that have made money, they look for new sources of where they can wage your funds.

Andrew Pace [00:37:51]:

And that's where offshore sportsbooks come in, and that's where potentially cash bookies, come in and people people use them. Is it safe and it does it go against, you know, a lot of the things that the regulated books preach? Sure. I mean, there's probably people that have died relating to this stuff. Mhmm. I'd imagine with certainty there have been.

Shane Mercer [00:38:12]:

Well, it it doesn't mean that they're not gonna In this article, yeah, they they bring up some some instances of of physical intimidation that that took place and, you know, debt collecting and the kind of stuff that you See in the movies. Right? I'm gonna I'm gonna break your thumbs type shit. Right? So Oh, totally. Yeah. You know, it's, it's crazy to think that that would still be happening, though, In in jurisdictions now where where it is fully legalized

Andrew Pace [00:38:36]:

right away. And and that brings me to the last reason, and that's limits. So depending on who you're working with, this guy in this article being obviously a really prominent example, you can't place wagers the size of wagers that you want to in a lot of cases for some people, so they have to do it through a bookie. So a lot of the top, top, top, like, underground bookies that will exist in certain cities, they'll take 7 figure wagers. Whereas, you know, maybe your your DraftKings and your FanDuels and your MGMs might might not even take a a 5 figure wager. So, you know, limits would be the next the next and final reason that I would list. I'm sure I'm missing some points, but those would be the top ones that I would say as to, I wouldn't even say, like, do those still exist? It's like they exist in droves, in in in massive levels. And and they've become more competitive because they want customers still.

Andrew Pace [00:39:36]:

And in order to become more competitive, they have to give you a reason to play with them, when they're competing against the DraftKings or a FanDuel for a for a lot of different people. Then then, of course, the last thing we didn't touch on is just the states that aren't regulated yet. If you don't have regulated sports betting, of course, there's gonna be bookies around. Like, there's a kind of a a running joke that in California, you know, you're gonna get a bookie, like, greeting you at the corner of of Rodeo Drive, like, because of the fact that the sports betting there just hasn't been legalized. And a lot of these cash bookies, like, the way it used to work, obviously, was, you know, they'd they'd tell you what the line was. You'd call it in. You know, you phone. They place the bet on a a piece of paper or whatever the case they have to, and book they book keep it, and then that's how they'd manage manage it.

Andrew Pace [00:40:21]:

But all these bookies are now using websites. So you sign up for a website on on their platform, form and you can't go in well, in some cases, you can, but you can't go in and necessarily log in and create an account. You have to know the person have a relationship with them in some capacity, and then they will make you a login and send it to you to keep to make sure that they have more or less verified who you are as a person and that you're not someone that, they don't necessarily wanna be working with.

Shane Mercer [00:40:50]:

Wow. You know, it's just crazy to think. But, yeah, you mentioned California, and I'm thinking about this guy Who, was, living and residing in California as well and, you know, working with with, you know, like I said, LeBron James' agent and Other high profile celebrities. I mean, it's a it's sort of a a a bastion of celebrity and and money. And meanwhile, it's, you know, not a regulated market. So, yeah, you're gonna get a whole lot of money flowing into this into this sort of black market or gray market or however you how you wanna describe it. But, Just unbelievable to to think that it's, that it that it is still happening and happening even more perhaps than it was happening in the past because now Sports betting is so mainstream. Right? And if if you're in an unregulated area, but you're you're you're you're still seeing and feeling all the pressures of of That that that the advertisements, you know, the stuff that's happening in the, you know, the advertisements, I'm thinking, in the arena, in a regulated market, Like, you know, you're watching games there or something.

Shane Mercer [00:41:48]:

You're still seeing it. It's still all around you, I guess, is the point I'm trying to make. So so you may be pressured to go down that Just down that way, and that that is the real, real dark side of this of this industry. Right?

Andrew Pace [00:42:01]:

Yeah. Well, There's, there's one reason I didn't state that I think is really important, and it's actually a really obvious one, but credit. Right.

Andrew Pace [00:33:37]:

So a lot of bookies operate on credit, and people with gambling problems will go find bookies. And the reason is is because they have no money. They can't get their bets in. Their credit cards are maxed out, and they get a line of credit with a bookie where maybe it's just $1,000 to start, but they've got some money that they can play with. And that's where you get into, you know, the, potentially, I'm gonna come break your kneecaps type scenarios where these guys can't pay and they have to run and flee from these bookies. But that's also a big reason why people use them. So if you are addicted to gambling and you wanna go place your parlay this weekend on DraftKings, things, but you don't have a single method of deposit, you might be able to find a bookie, that'll give you a a bit of a credit to to get started with, to go play. So, yeah, that that's a big reason to use them as well.

Andrew Pace [00:42:56]:

And, at Molly's Game, if you guys have seen Molly's Game, it's amazing book and just an incredible film. And, that's an underground poker game. And you would go, well, why wouldn't these guys just go play at, you know, Bobby's room in the Bellagio or go play at The Venetian in Vegas or whatever the case may be? Again, it's anonymous underground. You know, it's a high profile list of people, and, you know, tote I think Tobey Maguire, was one of the big names that was associated with Molly's game. And, yeah, I mean, you're you're you're playing poker in a high limit, high stakes room where you get served whatever you want beyond food and drinks. And, you know, it's all kept off the books. Right?

Shane Mercer [00:43:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, great film. Right. Fantastic movie. And, Yeah. You know? Hey. Who doesn't wanna play a little poker with Spider Man? Right? Oh, I see.

Shane Mercer [00:43:46]:

Anyway, thanks. We've covered a lot of ground on today's show. So I think it's it's probably time to wrap it up. Thanks for for joining me as always, and, we'll continue I need to keep break bringing you stories from from the sports betting world. And if you've got a story you wanna share with us, you know, you can comment, below. We'll we'll have to share it on the show. You know, if a book has done you wrong, we'd love to hear about it. So so please give us those comments, and and, you know, maybe we'd even bring you here on the show, and do an interview with you.

Shane Mercer [00:44:12]:

Yeah. Alright, buddy. Well, till next week, keep eating those books, but maybe not those bookies. Take it easy, buddy. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Behind the Lines. Remember to like, download, and subscribe. We are on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts.

Shane Mercer [00:44:30]:

Have a betting story or wanna be featured on our podcast? Drop a note in the comments below. And if you wanna join inplayLIVE, use promo code 'BEHINDTHELINES'